collaborator
There you go. Maybe go along the side of it. It'll transcribe as we're talking.
interviewee 6
Really can it pick up the Belfast accent. Okay.
collaborator
So, this is the thing if you watch it, it does Okay.
Interviewer
Eh no
collaborator
And then every so often, it just doesn't know what we're saying. And it just guesses.
interviewee 6
I might throw in some words, though, just. Just to check it.
Interviewer
I had to do a transcription for interviews, last year, with family members and it is abysmal with our accent.
interviewee 6
Well, I'll make sure to speak my clearest teacher voice.
Interviewer
Firstly, I have to tell you that this interview is being recorded. All personal information and any identifying information that you supply in your answers will be kept private. You can choose not to answer any of the questions, and you can stop the interview at any point. I will be making a transcript of this interview that you are welcome to check over. Are you happy to proceed?
Interviewee 6
yes
interviewer
it’ll be Fine. So, first question I want to ask you is how do you feel about the peace walls in Belfast should be removed, preserved, or kept where they are?
interviewee 6
Wow, this a really tough one. And actually, when I was at the Critical Religion Conference in Belfast back in June, I brought this issue up to one of the academics there. I don't know how I would describe my relationship with the peace walls or what I think of them, other than ambivalent, I think is probably the right word.
I mean, I grew up on the Falls Road, right where the peace walls are between the Falls and the Shankill. So, you know, for the first seven, eight years of my life, they were quite a staple. And I always thought that people on the other side of the wall must actually look different or sound different in some ways.
So, it was really a shock to me. Like I went on holiday to Portugal when I was eight years old and met the first family of Protestants I ever came across. And I was so shocked because I was like, you’re not green, You don't sound different. Your eyes aren't that far apart. Like, you know, there's all these different ideas that you have of the other beyond the wall.
And in that way, the walls really become inhibiting from you to be able to understand, you know, the other community and, you know, be able to form connections with them. You know, you're not so different, but it feels different when you have the walls in between. You kind of start to have all these kinds of different phantasm or imaginaries of what the other must look like or sound like or how they behave.
So, it's really difficult to forge cross-community relationships when you have the walls that reinforce this idea of difference. However, with that being said, I don't think we're at a point where the peace walls can probably come down with cross-community tensions, especially in areas like the Falls and the Shankill or other areas where there is a lot of high tensions.
I mean, you know, I can't remember the studies off the top of my head, but there has been a couple of surveys done asking people in those areas whether they want them to come down and they said no, which is the most important factor, because the people who live in these communities and by these peace walls, you know, it's a huge staple of their life.
It's, you know, where they live. It's where they feel safe, it's where their homes are, where their communities are. And if they're saying they don't want them to come down, that needs to seriously be taken into question. I mean, one of the good things about them, I suppose, is it does allow for communities to then also project their own narratives onto the walls and be able to, you know, kind of work out their own political standings and their own values.
I mean, the you know, the Falls peace walls are very colourful and very multicultural, multicultural. Any type of conflict in the world just gets absorbed and they just love to like it just gives them an excuse to doodle and paint. But it becomes a huge tourist thing as well, which then starts to bring in people. It's not also good for the economy, but it's good in terms of it.
It doesn't normalize the peace walls because it makes a spectacle of them in a way. But it also shows a different side to the peace walls where it can be something, something good, something creative, something constructive. Again, on the flipside of that, then you also have the paramilitary depictions as well, where it becomes very territorial.
Interviewer
Yeah.
interviewee 6
So, when you have depictions of political figures, you know, people in the UVF, you have the hunger strikers, you have guns being displayed on the walls, it becomes very, very quick.
It quickly turns into a territorial pissing contest where, you know, you might be celebrating people within your own community or artist within your own community. But for someone else coming from the other side, you know, that becomes hostile very quickly and feel it makes you feel very unsafe. So, it's really weird because to kind of sum sum up what I've been trying to say.
I think the peace walls very much do reinforce this idea of difference and a divide in the community. Yet at the same time, they are also, you know, I suppose canvases which can be used for creative cross-community or not? Well, not necessarily cross-community, although there has been cross-community building and and art and things like that. But it can be used to.
interviewer
Sort of by the community, to express, to express themselves.
interviewee 6
Exactly. Yeah, I think that's what I'm trying to say.
interviewer
Yeah. So, do you think that the peace walls were helpful or necessary during the Troubles?
interviewee 6
That is, my god, all these loaded questions. Joshua, I think it's very difficult because when you have, you know, people don't think of the Troubles as a civil war, and that's pretty much what it was. You know, the kind of the kind of feeling I've got from a lot of Scottish people is, oh, it was just a bit of trouble.
And they don't actually understand the severity of it. And they also don't understand that the kind of Northern Irish way of coping with trauma is to humour it or to minimize that. So, by calling it the Troubles, it kind of helps us have some sort of control over it, which other people don't seem to really understand. But we did have a full-on civil war.
And how do you how do you control or suppress rising tensions in that environment? It's very difficult to say. I mean, I think the peace walls are very much a material obstacle, which did help in terms of keeping the community separate. So, there was no ,well, not that there was no, there was a mitigation of, you know, of violence.
It's kind of like when your two kids are fighting, and you put one in each in a separate room or separate corner of the room for a time. I feel like it's a manifestation of a similar kind of logic, but at the same time it reinforced segregation in the communities and it also, you know, it's also one of those things when you segregate communities, it's easier to control a certain population as well.
And there's all issues of surveillance tied into that. So again, I think they were both helpful and very unhelpful, which I feel like it's going to be most of my answers for these peace walls. I feel like you're going to get a very long drawn answer of why they're both helpful and not helpful.
interviewer
Yeah, that’s ok. So, thinking about the area that you grew up and were there murals, painted curbs, flags. And how did you feel about them?
interviewee 6
So, the area I grew up all over West Belfast, but for the first six, seven or eight years I lived down round [redacted] on the Falls Road. So, I was right there at the Falls, peace wall. We grew up in[redacted] and [redacted] was on the other side of us, so we didn't have flags or painted curbs. But we did have a lot of peace wall paintings.
And to be fair, I actually never thought much of them until I moved away, like up to[redacted]. And suddenly they weren't there anymore. And when I would drive past them, I would notice the murals and stuff more. I think A, I was a child and didn't fully understand the murals, but also it was normalized for me.
So driving past them or walking past them was just like, Oh yeah, like I'm on the way to the shop or into town to pick up clothes with my mum, like it's not a thing. And so, I became more conscious of them when I moved away and suddenly the walls weren't a staple of my community anymore in terms of flags and paint curbs.
I mean, I associate that with things like places like Sandy Road or the Shankill or other predominantly Unionist areas, and it does, it makes me feel really unsafe. Now part of that as well is also because of, you know, when you're driving in the car and your parents suddenly freeze or they go, you know, don't say such and such or blah blah blah or my granny used to have a thing where you would bless yourself every time you passed a church.
And if you go into like an area of flags or painted curbs, she would be like, do not bless yourself. They'll know you're a Catholic, you know. And it's also one of those things where one of the best shoe shops, according to my family, it was down in Sandy row and we would always, always go and get like school shoes and stuff there.
And when you would go can kind of remember the name of the store, but when you would go like they wouldn't call my younger siblings or my cousins by their name, they wouldn't say Nisha, or they wouldn't say Tiarna or anything like that. They would just say, Come here like they would address them without actually referencing their name directly because they didn't want to give themselves away.
So there was a fear of, you know, those areas. And when you do see the flags and the painted kerbs, you do have a sense of coming into a different territory with a different set of values. And it's kind of like, you know, it is a bit of a pissing contest to me as well, you know, in terms of we lived in[redacted] for a while well my [redacted] did, I moved away to Uni and [redacted]moved to[redacted] and like [redacted], you know, used to be in the Orange Lodge, Never had a problem with anyone in [redacted]. They didn't know we were Catholic, which actually I'll tell you a funny story about that in a minute, but when the flags would go up and the walls eh not the walls, the kerbs would be painted.
The kind of atmosphere in the household like kind of changed because it's one of those things where [redacted] would suddenly tell [redacted] to change his Gaelic shirt before he came home from practice or she wouldn't let him go out and play Hurling in the garden.
Interviewer
Yeah
interviewee 6
Now whether there was an actual danger, there is another point. But she certainly felt it and she certainly created that environment in the House.
And there was there was one funny story where a Polish family moved in to [redacted] and my mom went to the butcher's. And because it's a small wee village, everyone knows each other. So, she went to the butchers, and she always had a good relationship with them. And she's talking to him, and he goes, I know. I just feel so sorry for the wee Polish family that moved in last week or whatever.
Ach You know, they'll never be able to fit in. And [redacted] went ach why do they not speak English. He went, no love they’re Catholic, which is just so funny because I feel like that that just kind of that that encapsulates kind of northern Irish thaw on both both sides if you want to decodeomise it that way.
Interviewer
Yeah
interviewee 6
where your your religion or what people perceive your religion to be even though it's not really a religious identity, there are, even if you don't see it as a religious identity, that then becomes your primary marker.
Interviewer
chuckles
yeah, so, are there any murals or murals on the peace walls that stick out in your memory? possibly any murals from like every other side that you've seen.?
interviewee 6
So, I mean, growing up on the kind of Republican side of the falls, like I think some of the things that really stick Che Guevara, I mean, he's everywhere. They just love him, which I find really funny because I feel like if you're opposed from like if you oppose British direct rule, then communism isn't necessarily, you know, a preferable political ideology,
Interviewer
Chuckles
interviewee 6
but apparently it is. So, Che Guevara is everywhere. Nelson Mandela, I remember Nelson Mandela being up there and, you know, a lot of Cuban things. I'm trying to think there's a lot of things about the world, like a lot of kind of images about the world and building friendship and stuff. And I think that's very much probably, you know, a tourist, not a tourist trap, but, you know, they're expressing this kind of trans nationality that kind of helps bring the tourists in if that makes sense.
I don't know how else to express it.
Interviewer
No, yeah yeah that makes sense.
Interviewee 6
So that's what I remember on The Falls. I remember a lot of the hunger strikers and I remember I remember the Bobby Sands murals on the Falls. And it's the the laughter What was it? Our Revenge would be the laughter of our children, which I always thought was a martin Luther King quote.
But apparently it's Bobby Sands, so I don't know how I’ve gotten them confused, but I don't know. I'm going to go check that.
collaborator
No, that's not it's not a martin Luther King quote.
interviewee 6
It's not okay. Okay. I don’t know how I’ve conflated them.
interviewee 6
Could be Malcolm X? hmmm. I never attributed this to Bobby Sands, but this mural does. So, I don't know who's right and who's wrong, so I'll need to check it. But I remember those being on the falls, eh one of the ones I remember from the Shankill. It was from the tour that I brought [redacted] on a tour last year, the year before, 2021, and we went to the Shankill and there was one that really freaked me out, which was, I can't remember this guy's name.
I can't remember his name at all. I'm terrible Recall. But it's one of those ones where the way that it's painted, no matter where you kind of stand, it looks like the person with the gun is following you, You know, the one I'm talking about
Interviewer
Yeah, yeah, I know which one you mean
interviewee 6
and it's very, very freaky is very, very uncomfortable feeling. Other than that, I remember I remember actually asking because this always intrigued me as a as a child, the Jewish association with the the the unionist murals because I this only really registered with me with the em, The whole discussion about the flag being taken down or the fleg being taken down from City Hall where I can’t remember who it was, was Willie Fraser. I don't remember. Someone came out and said that the unionist people in Northern Ireland were being persecuted like the Jews. So, this is the first time that this kind of entered the zeitgeist for me, and I didn't really.
collaborator
oh that, that came from. Ian Paisley.
interviewee 6
Ian Paisley? Ian Paisley?
Collaborator
Yeah, he constantly referred to the Protestants, as, as, the basically the Northern Irish Israelites was the phrase he would use about them.
interviewee 6
aah Okay, right
collaborator
So, he would always distinguish between Jews and Israelites. But then when, when Willy Frazer came out with that one, it got conflated. And he talked about the Jews. So, the Jews in Israel were going, No, no, we're not. No, no, no. You mean Zionists? They're different.
interviewee 6
Yeah, very different. But yeah, no, that's interesting. I didn't realize there was a distinguishing between the Jews and the Israelites. It's. But yeah, no, this didn't come into to my, my consciousness until the whole issue with the flag started. And then I started to notice the, the kind of, you know, Jewish like stars of David and then also the Israeli flags and things like that being painted.
Interviewer
Uhmhmm
interviewee 6
And I didn't realize that actually it made sense in a way when someone was like, oh, you had the six-pointed star is to represent the six counties of Ulster and Northern Ireland. And I was like, Oh, okay. But I didn't actually realize I'm terrible at Recall your man told us about some other man who actually went and helped set up Israeli settlements, and he was that was a prime unionist.
So I didn't realize that there was a historical connection there. But yeah, from from to summarize, basically, I remember on the Republican side, I, I recall the hunger strikers being very prominent. And then specifically on the falls that that kind of long stretch of peace wall the trans nationality, which I do suspect is a kind of not a gimmick for tourists, but it plays to the tourist sensibilities.
And then on the other side, I remember guns and I remember Jews.
Interviewer and collaborator
Laughing
interviewee 6
Oh, and and lots of World War One and World War two memorials, too.
interviewer
How do you feel about more some of the more neutral murals, such as the C.S. Lewis one or George Best and the Titanic murals, that are around Belfast?
interviewee 6
Actually, You know huh, I've never really thought about it, but I think I think, you know, I think that could only really be a good thing in terms of well, in terms of it kind of allows for a creative space for murals that are unique to Northern Ireland but aren't necessarily explicitly politically politicized. So, it's a celebration of, you know, culture that anyone can partake in unless you're not a football fan, because then you don't like George Best, or perhaps you don't like C.S. Lewis’ things, which is a shame.
But but yeah, so I think I think there's merit in in being able to, to paint and to muralalize other aspects of Northern Irish culture out with the political tensions or out with political narratives or political framing because whilst the troubles and whilst you know, the Northern Ireland has a very unique culture and whilst that is very much a part of our identity on both sides, whether whether people will admit it or not, you know, we have a very, very unique sense of identity and that is very much caught up in who we are and very much conditions that. But it's not just who we are. We have other things to kind of show the world. We have other kind of outputs. We have other other things to celebrate and other things too, narrativize and other things to mourn as well. So so yeah, I think I think they're they're good. I don't know. I don't know if I'd place a judgment value on them, but I assume that they can be used in a in a good way.
interviewer
And how do you feel about tourists having tours taken photographs, posting selfies and such beside the peace walls or in front of, say, the Shankill or the Falls or even at the Europa?
interviewee 6
Yeah, it's really difficult one to answer again, I'm very conflicted and very torn. I mean, I'm one aspect. I think the fact that the political, the peace walls in Northern Ireland are, you know, it's good to see them being maybe celebrated is not the right word, but used in a way that generates some good for Northern Ireland. Well, for Belfast, because it's really Belfast there in, you know, in terms of bringing people in, you know, contributing to the economy, I think that's really good.
It's also good in terms of I do like, you know, there are some of the taxi companies that are run by cross-community ex political prisoners. I like the the kind of, you know, lengths that people have went to to try and forge cross-community connections. And I think it's good for people to be educated on the politics of Northern Ireland because, my God, so many people do not know anything about what happened.
However, by the same token, it makes a spectacle of the political history that we have. And one of the issues that I really have is people taking selfies with not necessarily the murals themselves, but the kind of monuments or I don't know what you call them, memorials. Here we go, memorials of people who have died. You know, so they see it as a form of entertainment or leisure.
You know, it's a piece of an interesting thing they do when they go on holiday. But, you know, these were real people. Their families are still alive. And here they are taking selfies with them, you know, with their names on a memorial. It's really kind of disrespectful, kind of disrespectful because these people have died and have died very tragically. And actually, they have been murdered. They haven't died. And then, of course, you get the glorification. There's always the issue of glorification of certain political paramilitaries, you know, taking selfies by, you know, hunger strikers or taking selfies, you know, by UVF murals is really I don't know why people would think that that would be okay, because what you're then doing is you're implicitly approving, implicitly approving of not just their their political causes, but actually the means by which they try to achieve them, which is the big issue.
I mean, you can support nationalism or unionism and not go out and be violent towards another person you know violent towards them. So, there is the issue of glorification there as well. So, so yeah, it's, it's very much a kind of double-edged sword.
interviewer
Yeah. So, have you seen or are you aware of warnings and threats written on houses and walls and if so, what's your opinion on them? Are they intimidating, necessary, harmless?
interviewee 6
Oh yeah. I think they're super intimidating. It's really funny. Actually. Again, I have another funny story of when I was younger. I never realized that the IRA had so many different flavours of ice cream. Like, that's the only way I can describe it. I didn't realize it was Provos and sticky, stickies. The continuity is different from the IRAs.
You know, all these different like factions. And I thought that C. I.R.A., I didn't realize it stood for continuity. IRA. I thought it was someone misspelling Keira. So, I thought that people were like, trying to write their names and we're being idiots. So, in a way, even though that was really that's really intimidating for someone, you know, driving down the Falls road and they realize what the acronym stands for.
But as it actually not even as a child, it took me until I was about 24, I am not going to lie because I finally said something in the car to my mum and we're driving past the Royal Victoria Hospital, come near St Dominic's and it was actually on St Dominic's on the school that someone had written this and I was like, you know, it's ridiculous.
People don't even know to spell their names. My mum's like, What Love? And she had to explain to me.
Interviewer collaborator
Laughing
interviewee 6
and I was like, Gotcha, okay, well that, that is more threatening than what I thought it was. So, I do think it's it's very intimidating. And it's also it's, it's not just intimidating to people coming from outside that community.
It's also intimidating to people within that community as well because, you know, the paramilitaries, they still have a lot of power specifically in working class communities. But, you know, people don't see them as a necessary defence anymore. And a lot of people just whatever faction of the community come from, just do not want to return to violence. That's their main goal.
Regardless of their political opinions. They do not want to return to violence. So, to see the paramilitaries then write their names on the walls or to issue threats on the walls is really quite disturbing because it reminds you of their presence, because you forget it. But I mean, you hear about it all the time. You hear about it every so often.
But those things are a direct reminder that they're still there and they're still operating. And then it also becomes a thing of, you know, you have things like “touts out”, you have people calling people out on drug dealing or paedophilia and things like that, which, you know, A. the drugs thing I find really funny because the paramilitaries are supposed to be seen as, you know, cleaning the communities.
But at the same, they're actually like running the operations. It's not the fact that they are cleaning up the community and trying to protect it. It's someone else's came on to their turf and hasn't paid their protection money. And so, they're going to take them out under the knees, literally. So, there's there's those issues. And then in terms of the the paedophilia allegations and, you know, other kind of things that they're writing on the walls.
I mean, I suppose in a way, if someone is predatory in the community, it's good to know that they are. But, you know, for it's for them to, it's an act of intimidation to call someone out. And also, like the families of that person or that group or whatever, you know, that's really harmful, really harmful.
collaborator
I think the thing to make clear here, because it's part of an interview, is that sometimes when paramilitaries, particularly on the Protestant side, [ redacted] can confirm if this is the same or not, also when they use paedophilia, sometimes that's code for gay, sometimes it's code for trans.
interviewee 6
Is it. Huh I didn’t, hmm I hadn’t thought of wow really?
collaborator
Oh yeah, sometimes Is it the same on the Catholic side?
interviewee 6
I don't think so. I at least at least that has never been explained to me. So, I mean, I can't say for certain, but I never heard that before.
Collaborator
It's very strong in evangelical areas.
interviewee 6
Wow. I’ll need to check
collaborator
Which is not at all surprising.
interviewee 6
That actually that was mind blowing, which it makes sense because of the whole sexual perversion narrative that goes with gay and now transgender people. What you're seeing much more in the media is that there's some sort of sexual predator. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
collaborator
Sorry Joshua for interrupting you, carry on.
Interviewer
Don’t worry, its fine
it's been almost 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement and 25 years of ceasefire. Do you think we should consider removing the murals?
interviewee 6
I don't think we'll be ever able to remove the murals in terms of, you know, 25 years is not actually a very long time, you know. Yes, that is most of my lifespan. I mean, I'm 29, but that in the sense of community shaping communities, that is not a long time at all. So, it's still actually really fresh and it will be fresh for at least another few generations.
But, you know, you know, the troubles are so culturally embedded in the communities back home that I think to remove the murals would be devastating for a lot of the I mean, even just the memories, you know, their way of building cultural memory and of keeping that and sustaining that, I think what we should do instead of working towards removing them, is working out a way that we can express issues of, you know, express mourning and grief in ways that don't threaten violence or don't
Interviewer
don't glorify it?
interviewee 6
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that we also do for ourselves, you know, because I feel like sometimes the falls roads one are done for the tourists that come so you know I think there's a way I think it's not necessarily the murals that is the issue but how we represent the murals or the things that are represented within them.
And also, you know, I just found out when I did the tour that it was actually I think it was on the Shankill side where they were doing the was it the quilt, the women's quilt?
Interviewer
Yeah, that ones at the Shankill, I photographed it last year?
interviewee 6
You know, you know, which I thought was an amazing idea because so many of the murals, I mean all of them, from what I remember, it’s all men and you know, it's not as if women didn’t partake in the troubles.
collaborator
The only one on your side as far as I recall, that featured women is the one for the Falls Road curfew resistance movement.
interviewee 6
Yes, yes, you’re right.
collaborator
That's the one, it's the women with their buggies and their handbags.
interviewee 6
That's right.
collaborator
Which itself is an interesting representation of women, but.
interviewee 6
It is an interesting representation of women. But it's also very quotidian.
collaborator
quotidian hmm, yeah.
interviewee 6
Yeah. I'm like that word sounds weird, like It really it came out of my mouth before I could figure out anything. I, you know, I think I think there should be a movement away from paramilitary murals.
To express, you know, normal civilians and their narratives of the troubles. And part of that will be, you know, bringing women and children into the narrative and expressing their their viewpoints as well. Yeah. And I mean, there's also, you know, we don't we're pretty much a racially monolithic group back home. But, you know, there will be other you know, not everyone was a Catholic or Protestant in Northern Ireland during the Troubles.
You know, be interesting to see what other kind of religious or spiritual groups, how they viewed the troubles, their experiences of it. And, yeah, I just I think there's a way to diversify it and to also speak to the the kind of everyday lives of the people who lived through it that don't necessarily include the paramilitaries. I think there's too much of a focus on the paramilitaries and we forget that A. they had a direct effect on people. You know, it's not as if these people, you know, that are blowing up the murals, you know, it's easy to kind of either see them as a as a kind of hero or a villain and never realize that, you know, they're part of a much bigger picture.
interviewer
that there was so much more going on there.
interviewee 6
Yeah yeah
Interviewer
Moving on to the next question, how do you feel about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic, or lack thereof?
interviewee 6
Again, very conflicted and very, very torn on this one. It's one of those things that I think Northern Ireland, with the way that the North and the Republic were split and politically constructed, I think Northern Ireland will always have a cultural border, even if there is no political border. That's just the way things are and it's one of those ones I grew up in a Republican, you know, household.
So, it's difficult. I mean, I've always been kind of conditioned from a young child to want a united Ireland and all the kind of romanticization that comes with that. But at the same time, to eradicate that border causes an awful lot of tension, which could effectively destabilize a lot of things that we have worked for yet yet at the same time as well with the whole issue with Brexit, you know, northern Ireland has the right to self-identify well, not Northern Ireland itself, but people within Northern Ireland have the right to self-identify, which is why I find it really funny actually, that there are so many trans bigots on both sides. But I'm like, you’re both self-identifying here. So, you know, you know, there's there's question of borders, political order, political borders. It's yeah, it's one of those things where, I mean, Brexit makes it so complicated because with the Good Friday Agreement, you there's so, so many issues there that Brexit has contravened, and the questions broken borders become much more serious.
interviewer
Yeah, its like with the sea border
interviewee 6
Yeah. With the sea border and the whole issue of remaining within Europe, I mean, part of me wants to go, well, we've voted to stay so England, Wales can go like screw themselves like, you know, but then at the same time we still are part of the UK. And then that also flags up issues of devolution and whether the devolved powers actually work and what is the United Kingdom, because it doesn't seem very united at the moment.
But then if we're not a United Kingdom, where does Northern Ireland come into the equation? Because we aren't politically or legally reconciled with the South? We also have a very divisive community where half of us do and half of us do not want to be reunited with the South. And even if we were to be reunited with the South, I think we would still have a lot of the same issues that we do have.
We would have to be we would still have to have devolved government. There's no way that I would happily, you know, have a united Ireland and be directly controlled by the Doyle You know, they don't understand a lot of the the issues that we have in the north. We are historically and politically removed from them at this point. So, we would still have a devolved government and Stormont, under my view of of what you know, a united Ireland would look like.
And we still would have Michelle O'Neill and insert any DUP leader because they keep moving about. Recently, you know, fighting it out you know boxing it out in the arena and we would still not have a government. So so yeah, I, I don't think I answered your question, but I think I kind of did maybe?
interviewer
no, no, you did you.
interviewer
how do you feel about government buildings flying flags said we only fly the United Kingdom flags or should they try to include both the United Kingdom and the Irish flag.
interviewee 6
I mean, I'm always a bit torn with this notion of flags because I understand like government buildings want to show they’re government buildings and so they fly a flag. But I'm like, do you really need like a country flag? Surely people know where they are. Like, there's no there's no question of me being in Belfast and think. I mean I mean, I don't know Venezuela, so, you know, they don't really have a I, I don't have functional purpose, but I suppose they do reinforce a sense of, of community and then they obviously demarcate a government building.
I think in the in devolved countries in the UK or anywhere really, I think that they should always have both. If they're going to fly one, I think they should have both just as, just as a mark of inclusion.
interviewer
How do you feel about signs being written in both English and Gaelic?
interviewee 6
Oh, I love it personally. I'm always really jealous of bilingual people, so like, I'm quite happy to have signs written in both Gaelic and English. I also think it's I think it's also I think that's one of the nice ways actually, that we can celebrate our history as well, you know, where, you know, the Republican side don't necessarily need to resort to paramilitary murals.
You can have on signs, you can celebrate, you know, Gaelic culture, Gaelic sports, you know, I think it's a really, really positive thing. And it's also one of those things as well. I know there was a lot of years back when they started to introduce the signs, you know, the Beal Feirsde alba Feirsde, like there was a whole lot of uproar because it was like, oh, you know, you're basically pandering to to the I.R.A. or whatever.
But that's also politicizing the language, which, yes, you know, they did speak in Irish and stuff, but you know, there are also people in East Belfast that's speak Irish, you know, Queen's University, I think nine out of 12 of their Irish scholarships have went to Protestant students. You know, it's not necessarily a one-sided thing. And to say that it is, you know, necessarily weaponized by the IRA or necessarily Republican or or or nationalist or Catholic kind of, I don't know, thing to speak language, eradicates, you know, a lot of other people who do participate the language and share that language and learn that language, who do not identify within those communities or who do not live in those communities. So yeah
interviewer
do you think Gaelic and sort of more Irish history and culture should be taught in all schools?
interviewee 6
Um, yeah, I think I remember. I mean, I think one of the things that we should really look at which we we don't is the troubles themselves. Although in saying that I'm not entirely sure because it's so raw and because it's so heavily divided, I'm not sure how you would actually go about building a curriculum for that or.
interviewer
Even just teaching it fairly.
interviewee 6
Teaching it fairly? exactly. You know, but I remember at school, although this was a primary school, learning about the famine and the famine was really, really interesting to me, you know, especially because, you know, we understand, you know, you have discussions like, you know, things like the Ulster Plantations, but we don't ever really talk about Irish post-colonial or Irish postcolonialism, and we don't really see ourselves necessarily as a colonized land, at least not not the way that it's explicitly taught in schools.
And I think there needs to be more awareness and more discussion about colonialism and colonialism in Ireland itself, like all over.
Interviewer
Yeah
interviewee 6
Also, because I had a thing, I thought this was really weird. Like [redacted]. Actually, Francis [redacted] said something to me a few months ago online, and she was like, I just love your accent It's really different to the South. And I went, Well, in some ways, Yeah, in other ways, no, but I'm like, You do realize why it's so different, right? And she's like, No. And I'm like, Because you’ve came over here, like.
collaborator
it’s not only that you’ve come over here, I taught you it for two years.
interviewee 6
Years. Yeah, I’m like what the hell [redacted] how do you not get this Like, you know, I mean, actually, that's one thing. I think the way that Francis approaches colonialism and approaches specifically Ireland through the lens of colonialism and postcolonialism is something that should be introduced in schools or eh Well, some schools might have. I'm not entirely too sure, but how the curriculum has changed since I was a student.
But, you know, we got taught the famine in primary school. We didn't mention it again in secondary or grammar. Then we did get taught about Ulster Plantations, but it was more like a fact thing of, Yeah, they come over here, this is why they come over here. Dilly da da that there weren’t discussions about the, you know, that the political dynamics there wasn’t any discussion about colonialism as an entity or British Empire as an imperial institution, and how this factors into like a much broader discussion about well about colonialism.
There wasn't any of that, which I feel like would be very helpful, not just for us to understand our own history, but to then be able to understand other communities and other countries histories as well. Because colonialism is such a it's such a huge, huge issue.
interviewer
when you were a child, were you aware of faery rings, thin places and so on. And what did you think they were?
interviewee 6
So, I loved discussions about faeries like so love faeries, although it's really funny because my grandparents, my, my understanding of faeries from a very young age was like Brian Boru, and the King of the Faeries, and it was totally informed by Darby O’Gill as well. So, like, which is actually really funny, Josh, because one of the scholars who used to work at Stirling, his father was in Darby O’Gill is like an actor.
So, my granddad used to take us up Colin Glen and tell us a little bit faeries and King Brian Boru and his name is Brian. So of course, he loved it, and he used to talk about this all the time. We used to have a lot of discussions about Fairy Rings and fairy trees, and I was always super like keen to try and pick out a fairy tree. But it's really funny because even from a young age I had this understanding, this kind of really Celtic understanding the fairies, that they weren't some sort of pixie with a hat who sprinkled sugar on your cereal and farted rainbows and was a whole gyp, basically a small hippie peace, love and prosperity that fairies where powerful elemental entities that were very kind of almost exuberantly human in their nature insofar as they had loads of human emotions, but they were amplified.
So, like if you pissed one off, like you would get your eyes gouged out and your whole family would be cursed for generations. And of course, we had loads of Irish cultural, you know, the mythology books. So, I grew up reading those in my grandparents’ house as well. It was mostly through my grandparents actually, that I had that sense of connection to to Irish mythology.
interviewer
And so, what do you think about the mythology and the faeries now, have your views changed since your child?
interviewee 6
Emm, I don't necessarily know. I mean, my views, I don't know if I had like specific values or judgments that attached to them, but I am still intrigued by them. I mean, it's really annoying because one of the things, you know, being an academic, I have a lot of like special interests and one of them I wish I could pursue more is Irish mythology em or folklore and, you know, localized, you know, myth building or community and how it functions in community building.
I think I don't really think my I don't really think I've changed much in my understanding in terms of, you know, I was always aware that that the fae you know, not necessarily your Victorian pixies that you sing a lot of like you know, Peter Pan or Tinkerbell and things like that.
Interviewer
The Disney kind
interviewee 6
But yeah, but you know, it's funny because, you know, even the idea of the Bean Sidhe, sidhe is the Fae So even in that you know manifestation of them there was a realization of there was something that was also malevolent that wasn't necessarily, you know it was more demonic than divine although oh no, in saying that one of my views have changed in terms of I know have a more nuanced understanding of the depictions of gender in the Fae, you know, the Bean Sidhe, or is it the Bean Nighe , yeah that’s the name in the Scottish version
A lot of the say, the Fae that are characterized as malevolent or that are shapeshifters are specifically feminized. And so, you have a lot of discussion about female as either being a temptress in some way like you know, you have the idea of the old hag that can, you know, you see this actually you see this not in a Celtic sense.
The first thing I think of is Duessa. And in Spencer’s there's the fairy Queen, although it draws from a lot of Celtic mythology. But you know, Duessa is called Duessa because she's, she's got a double body outwardly, she's beautiful in her facade but underneath she's hag like and so you have a lot of discussions about the female body as being deceitful, you have a lot of discussions about it being a source of temptation, of excess sensuality or of violent emotion, something that also is both tied to both life and death.
You have this these images of, you know, the you know, like the green lady and, you know, all these different discussions about how women are tied to the land and to are fertile and whatnot. But at the same time, they also can take your life or your soul in the case of the Banshee. So, there's a lot of issues there with gender.
And even when you have, you know, issues about, you know, when I talked about the example of Duessa, a lot of the same rhetoric or logic can also be found in a lot of transphobic discussions as well, where the outward visage doesn't isn't doesn't cohere to the internal body, and that isn't necessarily how trans people present themselves, but how other people think of them that they're presenting female But people are concerned with what lies under their clothes, whether they're supposed to be really male or not.
So I am much more aware of the gendered dimensions or the rhetoric that underpins a lot of the Celtic mythologies. So yeah, I suppose has changed.
Collaborator
There is something to pick up with here Joshua, more for me than you really, in the sense that the women within the mythology that are, that remain beautiful, that remain pure, that remain desirable, are those who in some way commit suicide for their communities, the three famous ones being the ones that form the three rivers and the Foyle, the Shannon and the Lagan
So, there is that element to which beauty is only there when it serves another purpose.
interviewer
Yeah.
So how do you feel about tourists’ behaviour with taking selfies, pictures of thin places and Faery rings?
interviewee 6
Yeah. It's one of those things where it's like, I understand the, the want to capture something beautiful and to capture a memory of a place that is special. However, these places are seen as sacred, and I think in that way, you know, what is sacred is someway different or removed from other spaces. So, part of me goes, No, this is untouchable.
And you coming in with your selfie sticks don't know shit. So, you can all go away and like, leave me and my Thin places like. So, I do have that mentality. But at the same time and also actually one of the issues that I have with that as well, and I know this seems really almost insane, but it's like, you know, when people go there and they expect like manifestations of fairies, like in extended time and space that they expect someone to actually physically show up. And so, they take photos with the expectation of capturing something.
Interviewer
Yeah, I know what you mean.
interviewee 6
And even though like, you know, if someone said that to me, I go, Yeah, you're mad, right? But the idea of of capturing another life and kind of, you know, viewing it in terms of, you know, it's almost like a zoo. It's like that rare animal that people go and hunt.
You know, there's something predatory about that. Even even if, you know, it's like, I don't know, like if someone told me that they were going to go and, like, capture proof of a ghost, I go, right? Aye dead on, sure, on you go right. But the underlying logic of that, of capturing something rare or precious, just to say that you have done that, and you have some sort of command or control for that is really problematic and it is, it’s almost like a big hunter type thing without obviously the killing the animals.
But but there is there is something comparable there for me. So yeah, actually, I probably just leave it alone. Yeah, I'd probably I probably say take your cameras and go shove them. Yeah.
interviewer
yeah. Ok so the final question I've got for you is how do you feel about commercial versions of these being sold for profit? like faery doors for trees?
interviewee 6
Yeah. So, the thing is, is that I find them cute, right? But they're dead gimmicky and they're also problematic. So, like, I never really thought much of it until I lived in [redacted]with [redacted]and [redacted] was a conspiracy theorist, but she also loves her faeries. Right? But her idea of faeries is very much it's not even it kind of relates to the English Victorian depiction of, you know, the Peter Panesqe type sprites, but it is more like an American romanticization of the Celtic faeries So like the kind of.
collaborator
just to explain to you josh that this person is Canadian.
interviewee 6
Yes. Oh yes, this person is Canadian.
collaborator
So, they will have filtered it through that lens as well. Yeah.
interviewee 6
So, it's really weird because you get this strange discussion of fairies being little people that don't necessarily have wings and they look like us, but they're little people and they're tricksters. So, it's not even that they're. But by tricksters I don't mean tricksters as in, you know, your crone. I mean tricksters as in they come into your kitchen, and they push over the salt. Right?
Interviewer
Oh, em ok, all right.
interviewee 6
And [redacted] believes this this literally happens. So, like when something would fall off like, I don't know. Well, actually, I do know, the socks that the washing machine would eat. We ended up finding loads of socks like stuck in the thing of the washing machine and like down in behind it [redacted] genuinely put out like, what was it, cream and sugar or something to her faery garden with all the wee faery doors to get the socks back.
You know where I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of what faeries represent and the elemental discussions at play. I Don't know how else to describe it, but there's a there's a very fundamental lack of understanding of what they represent in historical Celtic communities and what they represent to Celtic communities now, and the whole kind of colonial bastardization of them.
Because this is another thing as well, is that interestingly, the Catholic communities have a really weird relationship with fairies because on the one hand it connects them to their Irish past and Irish cultural and history. But at the same time the Catholic Church demonized them. And so, you get this really weird thing of we love the faeries, we love the faeries, but their demons in disguise.
But we love them, but they're demons. So, you know, it's almost like a whiplash. And they don't necessarily know where to draw the distinction between faery and demon. If there is actually such a distinction that can be made. So, in terms of those wee doors, [redacted] has quite a few of those doors. And I feel like a lot of those faery images and depictions A are not representative of Celtic depictions of the fae.
But then you fall into questions of authenticity and truth there as well. And the different like provincial understandings of of these things. But my biggest issue for me is how they connect to other discussions, other new age spiritualities and new age ways of thinking which in themselves aren't necessarily harmful, but they're caught up in a lot of very problematic colonial discourses and appropriation and, you know, myths, misapprehensions of other cultures because, you know, you get faery doors that are sold right beside crystals that talk about chakras that, you know, then you have stuff for your yoga and you get this really weird amalgamation of all sorts of different cultures and misappropriated them of some that are not great.
interviewer
Yeah, well that was the final question I had for you.
interviewee 6
Yeah.
interviewer
I just want to thank you for answering them and taking the time to do this interview.
interviewee 6
I don't know if you got this, but I love to talk. So, any time
collaborator
There are so many questions that we can ask and there's so many more conversations that.
interviewee 6
You know, is there is there anything you want to follow up, or want me to clarify or anything you want to pick?
Collaborator
Josh and I may have some discussions afterwards and we may come back to certain points for one of us or the other, it may be something I want to ask further but something you know more my field than his, anyway I was really interested in the I think this idea of sort of cultural memory and cultural appropriation and colonialism is a big thing that's coming through. You know, it's exponentially worse since COVID. Yeah, people really did react to that by buying these little fairy doors and whatnot.
interviewee 6
You know, I didn't even think about the covid impact as well. Yeah.
collaborator
Yeah. And even on the common here in Lincoln, they have four big commons and they're public ground set out in the Magna Carta. But horses roam free horses roam them. You can walk on them. So, during COVID people were going on put in like fairy doors and then the horses were trying to eat them and there was all sorts of issues, but people were trying to do this because there is that kind of the sacred aspect to them that they kind of grasp but at the same time don't grasp.
And there was the sorts of people, people were grieving and mourning and so on. But yeah, there was all kinds of issues with it.
interviewee 6
Yeah, I mean, one of the kind of things that I've noticed specifically back home in Belfast is the conflation between like Fae and Native American spirits.
Collaborator
Yeah,
interviewee 6
Yeah. And there's an awful lot of things of like, you know, kind of conflating like Puca’s with their coyote spirits. And there's actually mediums that fashion themselves as some sort of, like Native American, you know, guru like and I use that word guru deliberately because they conflate Indian and, you know, just a Native American or American Indian culture and they relate this to to the fae and Irish spirituality.
But there's one woman, [redacted] Oh, what's her her name? You be able to find her if you type[ redacted] but she styled herself as Native American type medium or spiritualist. But yeah, she very much. And because she has the dark blond hair and darker features, people assume that she, she has some sort of blood quantum, but she's just a Belfast woman with a fake tan.
collaborator
Even that the whole idea of blood quantum. And that's because there was the law that anyone who was 1/16 or less was white. Yeah, and they called it the Pocahontas law, you know? So, there's all of these issues around. Yeah, absolutely. It's actually got to the point where, you know, the Derry girls are making fun of it. You know, they have super they go to see the medium because they can't find the razor, you know. Yeah, humour tells you a lot. Humour reveals a lot about these, these kinds of social structures as well.
interviewee 6
Yeah. yeah
collaborator
For them to be lambasted because that was not a thing in the nineties, you know, I'm the same age as those characters, you know, that was not a thing in the nineties mediums and the like that’s not a thing, you know not over here not then.
interviewee 6
Yeah, it seems to be like a mid-2000s boom.
collaborator
It was, you know, so for them to put it in to a show about then is really a comment on now.
interviewee 6
Yeah. No, it's Derry girls it's great. We've were all watching em father Ted at the moment.