interviewer
This interview is being recorded. Your details and any identifying details that you supply in your answers will be kept private. You can choose not to answer any of the questions or stop the interview at any point. I will be making a transcript afterwards which you are welcome to check over. Are you happy to proceed?
Interviewee 3
yes
Interviewee 4
yes
interviewer
how do you feel the peace walls in Belfast, should they be removed? Preserved?
interviewee 4
I think it depends on the people that are living near them.
interviewee 3
It's up to them really yeah.
interviewee 4
Yeah, it should be up to them, but that's not one of your answers. You're not like.
interviewer
I'm not looking for any specific answers.
interviewee 4
Well, I think it's up to the people that are living there. What to do with them.
interviewee 3
I think the government policy over here at the minute is, if they agree and both sides of it, you know, agree with bringing it down then they bring it, they will bring it down. But if one of the sides doesn't agree with bringing it down
interviewee 4
It stays.
interviewee 1
So, a lot of the times its, it’s a you know a confidence in the community? Do we trust them and then they trust us? Yeah, so that’s sort of the way with it you know so sort of.
interviewer
yeah, so, do you think the peace walls were helpful or necessary during the Troubles?
interviewee 4
I think they were. Yeah, they were definitely necessary.
Interviewee 3
Oh, aye They were very necessary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
interviewer
Thinking about the area you grew up in where there, murals, painted kerbs or flags. And how did you feel about them?
interviewee 4
Well, when you were growing up. Yeah that was what you were used to, you thought they were great. Yeah, because it's all you’ve really known. Yeah. You know, and you thought, they were everywhere.
interviewee 3
Yeah, yeah aye
interviewer
Has your opinion of them changed in recent years?
interviewee 3
Eh yeah, yes.
interviewee 4
Oh, yes, most definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the, the message behind them has changed as well so.
interviewee 3
Yeah, that’s it isn’t it yeah
interviewer
so, you think it's changed?
interviewee 4
Well, I think years ago they were put up, am it was, was like people trying to protect their culture. You know, I think that really was what they were doing.
interviewee 3
Was specifically protecting like themselves and their culture.
interviewee 4
The thinking behind it was then, that it was the sort of Protestant culture. And but now it's criminality.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewer
Yeah. How do you feel about the same type of stuff, flags, murals, painted kerbs, and such on the other side
Interviewee 4
It doesn't offend me in the least.
interviewee 3
We don't, well look, we’ve no problem with the ones that are celebrating something good, like in East Belfast you’ll get ones about C.S. Lewis and you know, we get things are about positive sort of things but there's also ones in East Belfast that are you're……
interviewee 4
But he’s talking about the other side.
interviewee 3
I know I know, I'm just saying, but
interviewee 4
But but now, seeing, now saying that.
interviewee 3
You’ve got ones now with gunmen on them. There's one opened recently in the Shankill and it's a man that killed. The man has killed. You, know like he's killed, like mass killings and they're celebrating him And so it wouldn't agree them then.
interviewee 4
Aye I know but he didn’t ask you that. he asked you about the other sides murals.
interviewee 3
Yeah, but it’s basically the same principle.
interviewee 4
But that’s not the question he asked.
Speaker 3
Can I switch this off till I smack her?
interviewee 4
laughing
now in saying that, I say they don’t offend me But when we go in to see my [redacted], they live in the[ redacted] and they're very, they're like I.R.A. murals and walls, you know, to comerate the IRA. And they well yeah gun men and the likes
interviewee 3
Aye they are and atrocities too.
interviewee 4
And I if I'm being truthful, it does make me feel uncomfortable.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewer
Yeah, I suppose this bleeds into my next question, how do you feel about the neutral murals? Such as the C.S. Lewis ones or the George Best one.
interviewee 4
Oh, aye they’re great.
interviewee 3
No problem. No problem with them
interviewee 4
Because maybe five years ago, our estate would have had a lot of paramilitary murals. And then about five years ago, they got funding from the EU to change them all to suppose a more a cultural message.
interviewee 3
I think it was more than 5 it was like 15 years ago.
interviewee 4
15 years ago?
interviewee 3
Well maybe not that long but definitely more than just Five years ago.
Interviewee 4
Oh alright. Okay. But and that was really good. Everybody in the estate really liked them.
interviewee 3
Yeah,
interviewee 4
but in the past. Well, would it have been five years since they started going the, the other way again.
interviewee 3
Aye it could be about that.
Interviewee 4
You know, they had.
interviewee 3
Actually, they had one up. Do you remember your man, is it captain Tom, your man during the lockdown. You know he sort of well he walked up and down and
Interviewer
Ah yes. he walked up and down his garden and raised money for charity.
interviewee 3
Well, they Still have a mural up of him you know celebrating him and they've also one up, celebrating the NHS which I don’t think anybody on either side could have any problem with the NHS, you know.
interviewee 4
But they did paint over a lot of the cultural murals with UVF murals.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewee 4
Late on some nights
interviewee 3
And round here what they would do, well in a lot of protestant areas, now I haven't seen it in Catholic areas, but if you get an empty house, like a council house, somebody will paint on the wall , the wall of the house, property of the UVF.
Interviewer
Yeah?
interviewee 3
yeah, you know.
interviewer
hmm, I actually saw some of that when I was in Bangor after the start the year.
interviewee 3
{Laughing}
And Bangor is one of the worst places to live you know in Northern Ireland it really is.
{for context, the interviewer is from Bangor}
interviewee 4
{laughing}
Aye see Bangor people; you just couldn’t like them.
Interviewee 3
They always say if the world had an arsehole, it’d be Bangor.
interviewee 4
This is being recorded, they’re going to think your serious
Interviewee 3
Ach never worry. Sure, they’re a big city now. Hey. Bangor ooh big city
interviewee 4
Oh, dear lord. I’m so sorry about him. he’s ridiculous.
Interviewer
laughing
no worries
How do you feel about tourists having tours, taking selfies or photos at places like the peace walls or the Shankill or the Falls or in front of the Europa.
interviewee 3
Well, I’ve really no problem with it. We've been in Berlin. I’ve took pictures of the Berlin Wall and been people get killed you know coming over it, I don't think you can really stop it. Unfortunately. It sells, its tourism.
interviewee 4
You know, and it is part of history.
interviewee 3
When you look at Belfast, they celebrate the Titanic boat, you know the ship and really were celebrating a blooming great big disaster where 1500 people died, you know, it's not, I’m thinking really there’s no stopping it and really, I’ve no problem with it You know.
interviewer
Yeah. So, have you seen or are you aware of warnings and threats written on houses or walls And if you have, what's your opinion of them? are they intimidating, necessary?
interviewee 3
They're very intimidating.
interviewee 4
very very intimidating
interviewee 3
we’ve one now what would it be hmm maybe about 50 yards from our house and it's one of them ones naming somebody and saying they're a heroin dealer and basically they need to get out. It's on the wall now about six months now. But yet Ards borough council will tell you have zero tolerance of that, and they say that they're supposed to be removed or painted over whenever they come up. Well Within a couple of days they'll get somebody to come out and like paint over it or get rid of it or whatever. But they haven't done that.
interviewer
Yeah. So, it's been almost 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement and 25 years of ceasefire. Should we consider removing the murals, do you think they keep us stuck in the past or are they a reminder of what we went through?
interviewee 3
I suppose it’s sort of both really isn’t it.
interviewee 4
Yeah, I yeah it is.
I wouldn't think that you’d get anybody brave enough to go out and remove them.
interviewee 3
Yeah, well, now we did what my actually my actual cousin who was, I don't know, I think she married him eventually, like a fella from Dublin. A fella from Dublin who was in the British Army when he left the army, He got a job up here privately, going round, washing off murals. Now that was he had a Dublin accent when you think of him going round Belfast with his Dublin accent washing off murals. I’m sure he was popular.
But what he would have done, he would went and painted the murals out at say 3:00 in the morning, you know, in the middle of the night so there was less people to see him doing that. But he was the only one I knew that did that apparently, they offered really big money for ones to do it. He was the only one I ever knew of that would take the job on that way.
interviewee 4
But I don't think you would really. like there would be an absolute riot.
interviewee 3
Yeah
A big example of that there. When I worked in that the DOE, which was in Northern Ireland responsible for maintaining the footpaths and the roads, so when I worked in[redacted] eh I can tell you this cos it was in the blooming newspapers at the time so it safe enough. when I was in [ redacted] down there, the painted all the kerbs red, white, and blue and somebody complained about it. So, they, they actually came down to our work and asked us would one of us go down and paint it. Now we all refused cos it was during the day we all refused to do it. And then they ended up 2 of the foremen went down and painted on the kerbs out around this house right painted them all out. The following week it was headlines in the Chronicle. The [redacted]People want to know who it was that painted their kerbs out. Now the Chronicle newspapers like a local newspaper but it wasn’t in any way political, so it wasn’t but boy those people were mad that the kerbs got painted out. I think they just repainted them red, white, and blue anyway. Waste of time
interviewer
So how do you feel about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland or lack thereof of a border?
interviewee 3
Ah that's a real hard one isn’t it.
interviewee 4
That never really was a border as such because it was, so it was too long area for them.
interviewee 3
But there was like several checkpoints.
Interviewee 4
Yeah, but only the main roads. They just ignored the wee ones. But here that was the problem and the troubles with all the bombers. These gunmen could just go from Northern Ireland and the Republic, you know they like they could pass back and forward quite freely.
So, there hasn't really been a sense of a border for years.
interviewee 3
No there hasn’t really
interviewee 4
And I think it is quite good that you can go down south and just come and go as you please. Yeah, I.
Interviewer
So, you think it's good, that you can have open travel between the two.
interviewee 3
Yes, yes.
interviewee 4
oh yeah yes.
interviewer
How do you feel about potential new borders that Brexit could cause Borders such as the Irish Sea border or even a hard or strictly enforced border?
interviewee 4
aye well, the Irish Sea border is creating havoc.
interviewee 3
Yeah
interviewee 4.
And for the country, for the for the normal people.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewee 4
You know what had no assembly. There is no funding going into the NHS our education sure everybody in England Scotland Wales is getting their, their energy payments and none, nobody in Northern Ireland has got anything yet.
interviewee 3
There's a lot of things that, that made it very complicated now and you know like importing things from England you know, was I was out the other day, like take sausage now you can’t get English sausages although we don’t know anybody who’d eat English sausages but yeah the people are in town and apparently can’t get the English sausages in Tesco’s anymore that's the way it is now there is a lot of food stuff you just can’t get.
interviewee 4
But there's a lot of underlying, it's feeding into the rise of paramilitaries,
interviewee 3
Hmm yeah.
interviewee 4
the rise of paramilitaries and extremism again.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
You get them both, you getting a big shift in politics from the middle ground in politics to Sinn Fein on one side and the DUP on the other side things well actually the extreme version of the DUP and you’re getting them and then people are going to those a lot more. Because of all of that.
interviewee 4
Yeah, you see a definite shift in people. They’re yeah going for those more now you know.
interviewer
Yeah. What effect do you think a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic would have on the peace process?
interviewee 3
Well they tell you that it would have a big effect on it but I don’t, I don’t really think it would have an effect on it.
interviewee 4
But is that, is it not illegal because of the Good Friday Agreement.
interviewee 3
Yeah,
interviewee 4
part of the Good Friday agreement I think has made it illegal for there to be a border between the Republic and Northern Ireland. There. So, there's a whole lot of connotations with that. That's a no. how would I feel about it hmm I think I wouldn't like a; I don't want a united Ireland by no means, but I wouldn't like to be a very strict border between the Republic and the North.
interviewee 3
Hmm yeah hmm.
interviewer
Yeah. Ok, how do you feel about government buildings flying flags, should they try to be inclusive and fly both UK and the Irish flag, or just for UK flag?
interviewee 4
None
interviewee 3
Well….
interviewee 4
Eh no cos Nobody ever noticed that they didn't.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewee 4
Fly them until they supposedly took them down and then they all went mad about it.
interviewee 3
Aye and like when you go to England hardly any of their government buildings, they don’t really fly flags on them anyway either.
interviewer
Yeah. How do you feel about signs being written in both English and Gaelic
Interviewee 3
No problem with that to tell you the truth But I do think that they should do Ulster Scots as well I suppose they should do them all or at least both but I suppose that depends on what area you’re in
interviewee 4
Although it (Ulster Scots) not a language is it. It’s more of a dialect
interviewee 3
Yeah,
Interviewer
Should Gaelic be taught and all schools as a second language.
interviewee 3
I think if it’s an option and you want to learn it then yeah go ahead if you want. If you want to learn a skill, go ahead with it just the same as any other language, you know, because.
interviewee 4
Unfortunately, Sinn Fein politicized the Irish language and then the unionists let them do it. It really should be a shared thing and if you back in history the Gaelic league and in Ireland before partition it was set up by Protestants to to sort of nurture the Irish culture, you know, like Gaelic, and things like that.
It was Protestants. They wanted to keep those traditions, but then Sinn Féin politicized it and the unionists well they just let them. You know.
interviewer
Yeah, so should schools make concentrated effort to include more of Irish history and culture.
interviewee 3
Yes.
interviewee 4
Yes. Yeah
interviewee 3
When we were at school, we were just taught English history and like the the Catholic schools well they just taught Irish history. So, then you get a disadvantage because what they were talking about, this happened and that happened, and oh this happened in 1916 and we don’t know, like we can’t say anything about it cos we don’t know really what it was, like
interviewee 4
Yeah, that’s true.
interviewee 3
Yeah
Interviewee 4
You need to know your history; know why you are and why you’re where you are now.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewee 4
I think that the Protestant kids and the Protestant people have really have really missed out on knowing
interviewee 3
Their own history.
interviewee 4
Yeah, Their history because they weren't taught all that.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
interviewer
Yeah. So, should the Troubles be taught in school?
interviewee 4
Yeah.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
And they are, they are. Because even when our [redacted] was doing her GCSE, I think they were the first maybe in the first few years that they actually taught it a bit more. This sort of did it with the human rights marches and things in Londonderry and that, didn’t they, Aye yeah, they did
Interviewee 4
But it's, you know, it's sort of brought in you know how the troubles started up and stuff like that.
interviewer
Yeah. How do you feel about national teams like football playing God Save the King as their national song? Should we be more like Scotland who sing flower of Scotland and why do you think Northern Ireland doesn’t use an alternative song.
interviewee 4
Yeah, I think they should have an alternative. Some because of just, what? Oh, my goodness. England have scored three goals and I missed it. Sorry.
(Interview is taking place during the 2022 world cup)
Interviewer
don’t worry about it.
interviewee 4
Sorry right Yes, because you know Wales sing Land of my father stuff. They were singing that in Welsh you know before the match started.
interviewee 3
We thought we’d be clever tonight and put the subtitles up and see what the words meant but then they came up in Welsh so were none the wiser.
interviewer
ah well.
Interviewee 4
Yes, I think we should have a neutral song. Yeah, like they said.
interviewee 3
Yeah, they probably should
interviewee 4
Aye you know, like the Sash.
interviewee3
Laughs
No, they usually say, Danny Boy or something like that. No, actually, I think, yeah, its Danny boy but then you know it has nothing to do with with anything like. But there's a sense, like, you know. But they would say that. They say Danny boy.
Interviewee 4
Whoever’s listening to this tape recording is going to think were two ejitts
interviewee 3
Nah sure its grand, you don’t know them anyway so…
interviewer
how do you feel about national teams that include both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland should they exist at all?
interviewee 3
Well, we’ve probably a Better chance of qualifying for things like if they’re together.
interviewee 4
But when you see the rugby, it's both. And they're very, very successful.
interviewee 3
Yeah,
interviewee 4
whereas Northern Ireland's never going to win anything on the world stage because it's too small a pot to pick from
interviewee 3
Aye Yeah.
interviewer
so, you think it helps to give us a shot?
interviewee 3
yeah
interviewer
When you're a child were you aware of things like faery rings and stone circles and thin places and so on And what did you think they were?
interviewee 3
It wasn't, I wasn’t really aware of them to tell you the truth, we were inner city Belfast so I don’t think we would have seen any as a kid.
interviewee 4
Plus, at the time, you know, where we grew up, you thought that it was something that I think Catholics were more aware of things like that you know Faeries and stuff Yeah.
interviewee 3
Yeah probably
interviewer
mmhmm and what do you think about them now?
interviewee 4
What do you think What?
interviewer
What do you think about the faery rings and thin places now?
Interviewee 4
Oh yes. Well, right. Because going to faery rings and seeing stone circles is something that we’d be very interested in now, you know, cos the reasons we didn’t before was like cos we didn’t really, there weren’t any about growing up but now that we’ve moved and you see them yeah.
interviewee 3
Yeah.
There's a lot of Catholic ones believe there's a lot of them, they’ll go and and they'll put like a procession or something like say somebody’s tie or something and they’ll tie that to the faery tree or
interviewee 4
Oh no. Those trees, they’ll….
interviewee 3
Trees aye cos like the faery trees It's like a lot of superstitions, things more on Catholics side. You know like we go there, and you just have a sense it's it's like from your culture from years ago. But we wouldn't believe that they just so they got more from history side maybe.
interviewee 4
What did you call that place down there in Portaferry.
interviewee 3
Oh, aye it’s a something wells or a well or a name and a well.
interviewee 4
Something. It's like a well. But yeah, the Catholic Church now they said that would consider it a sacred place. Yeah. And Catholics would do pilgrimages to it you And tie things to the tree that’s there at it , You know, like maybe something to remind them their dead relative. Whereas us ‘uns well we wouldn’t be into that superstition the same, but we’d be looking at it like as an ancient site you know that yeah maybe they thought was magic back then you know
interviewer
How do you feel about commercial versions of say faery doors and such being sold for profit
interviewee 3
I don't I certainly wouldn't buy into that sort of thing because well, as a Christian You don't believe in superstition, you know what I mean, to me. So, our view maybe wouldn't be the same as other people.
interviewee 3
But but it's nothing to do with religion or superstition though is it.
interviewee 4
Probably not But I think it's a racket.
interviewee 3
Yeah. It most likely is.