interviewer
This interview is being recorded. Your details and any identifying details you supply in your answers will be kept private. You can choose not to answer any of the questions or stop the interview at any point. I will be making a transcription afterwards which you are welcome to check over at any point. Are you happy to proceed?
Interviewee 1
yes
Interviewee 2
yeah
Interviewer
How do you feel about the peace walls in Belfast
interviewee 1
Okay. So, I would say some these are a necessary evil. And, you know, if they weren't there, there's times where it could, it could really get bad for the people that live on that frontline.
interviewer
Do you think they were helpful or necessary during the troubles?
interviewee 1
Definitely. Yeah.
interviewer
So how do you feel about peace walls in Belfast?
interviewee 2
Didn't really have a lot of contact with them, only when you went up to Belfast shopping or visiting people. But it was a case of; it was necessary for people to feel safe. They needed to be there. It wasn't. They weren't pretty. They weren't nice, but they were needed to keep people safe. Safe, which I think they are, then yeah, they should still be there.
interviewer
Thinking about the area you grew up in were there murals, painted curbs, flags. And how did you feel about it?
interviewee 2
Ha, you painted them.
interviewee 1
Well, I know. I liked them. And I liked that they identified your area. They weren’t, eh, weren’t well painted; they were not good quality paintings, so that no I didn’t like. But it wasn't about, hold on I’m trying to think how to say this. So, it reinforces your identity, and you want your identity known. And even, even only to you to who you are, even if nobody else outside sees it. And it doesn't matter. And you see them, and that doesn't mean you agree with every slogan or every bit that was put up.
interviewee 1
Well, you didn't agree with it all, you know but the, the generalness of it. Yeah.
interviewer
Has your opinion often changed in recent years?
interviewee 1
No, mine hasn't.
interviewer
Okay. Thinking about the area that grew up and was for murals painted curbs, and how did you feel about it from?
interviewee 2
There wasn't where I grew up, but when I went up to where [REDACTED] grew up, then yes, they were all there. And it was there was a sense of security. You knew, you knew where you were; you knew you were safe. And when you went to other areas that you didn't really know so well, it was like a boundary.
You know, if you're out of your area, then if the colours changed, you knew you weren't safe. You had to get out of that area as quickly as you could.
interviewee 1
See, see if you felt safe when you went into another Protestant area because you had the signs, and all were there. Yeah. So, you knew it was very safe for you.
interviewee 2
Knew where the boundaries were. You knew where not to go. Yeah. If I go over that boundary into that, that's not safe.
interviewee 1
Because it gives you a sense of belonging. So, So, if you get it, I was with football fans and stuff, so when we went to the, it would be what, the Euros, yeah, 2016, and we have our Northern Ireland tops on and people we’ve never met never going to see it again. But we all gather, we can all sing songs, and we can all identify with each other and that that Northern Ireland wasn't a Catholic or a Protestant thing or something; it was just you're all from there, and it didn't matter what you were, except you're from Northern Ireland, you represent that, and that was your identity.
You know.
interviewee 2
The function of them hasn't really changed. Looking at them. Some of them look awful; just they don't look nice. But they didn't really look nice then. But they were part of what kept people safe. They were a part of the boundaries, and you knew not to cross that, and if you crossed it, you knew you were in danger.
interviewer
how do you think that those murals, the flags, and kerbs are viewed by the other side?
interviewee 1
They're probably viewed ours the way I view theirs. I detest them.
interviewee 2
I think each, each side views the other side as lies and propaganda, particularly when you were younger. That's how you saw them. When you look at them now, I think, well, they have the same reasons for putting them up there that we did. their security, their boundaries, their own area. It's marking your territory. And I think they probably viewed them in very much the same way that we did.
We just weren't aware they thought of them that way.
interviewee 1
Yeah, see, they were they, they were creating what we were creating, and that was a no-go area. And so, you didn't like that, they would not of like yours and vice versa. And so, there's no point in pretending you did. And some of the, some of the what they were saying, you didn't like what they were saying and the same with them, They would not of like what some of the stuff we were writing and painting and declaring and so that does it does provoke as well as reinforce your sense of identity.
It does provoke the other side as well. And that's for both. it doesn't justify us and that doesn't justify them.
interviewee 2
And parts of it were meant to provoke. When you when you had murals, the; that were about people who had died or who had done, you know, such as things like you know, such as Bobby Sands, they would put things up from a derogatory point of view about Bobby Sands, and that was meant to provoke the other side. They did the same thing with soldiers that had been killed or, you know, people from our side that were...
It was meant to provoke.
interviewer
Are there any murals that stuck in your mind? From your own side or the other side?
interviewee 1
Well, generally speaking, from, from the other side, they brought in they brought in proper artists. So, you had to say yeah, So they're really well done. They're very, very well done. And some of them are very, very good, you know, And yeah, you have to say that, that their theirs was better than our ones. Our ones were very bog standard.
interviewee 2
Amateurish?
interviewee 1
Just paramilitary, and simply they weren't prepared to paid money to get them done. The others you know and some of some of it was fantastic artwork, but standing out no not no none really stands out.
Speaker 2
Really? well, it’s not one, but freedom corner stands out. So, it simply because of what it stood for, what it was, and it became quite famous. And that kind of stands out.
interviewer
How do you feel about tourists having tours, taking photographs, posting selfies, etc. At peace walls or in front of, say, the Shankill or the Falls or the Europa
interviewee 2
It doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I went to a different country, you would look at places that were of interest, whether their historical interest or that type of interest. It doesn't bother me that they want their photos taken. It's not something I would go to see. But I get why people would find it interesting, particularly places like the Europa.
It's the most bombed hotel in Europe. So, probably in the world, actually, I get why people would do that. I don't see what harm it does if the tourists bring revenue. So yeah, why not
interviewee 1
I think it's very, very funny that people stand at these places, and they take selfies, and yet when they were put up or put out to say, keep out, this is our place, and yet you can go in and stand there, take selfies, and it's really, really funny. And the locals on either side will walk behind them and don’t give a hoot, you know And so they're they've lost something of the threat that they once had.
That's really that's good. Yeah. You know but it has lost that, it’s funny to see, you know people taking a selfie on a wall that said I'll when it was originally painted said I'll kill you if you come in here is funny, you know.
interviewee 2
Well, a lot of the murals have changed. They're not as aggressive as they used to be. Some of them depict softer issues.
interviewer
That actually bleeds into the next question; how do you feel about the neutral murals such as for C.S. Lewis, the titanic, the boxing ones or the George Best ones?
interviewee 1
I think murals are fantastic if they're done in the right place. So, I don't think you should ruin any property. I don't think you should paint them on somebody's wall of the house unless they are happy with you doing it. And I mean, they’d be genuinely happy. I don't mean six guys come to the door and say, we want to paint your door or your wall, and that's not free choice.
But for I mean, if you really put up a really good painting and that could be inspiring for for people or it can be something that you remember and that nothing well especially nothing to do with the troubles, something that everybody gets respected for. You know, you put up a George Best one or something like that, you know, or the Titanic paintings or stuff like this here, they’re well done.
interviewee 1
But if they're not well done, don't do it.
interviewee 2
but murals, is part of probably, our heritage. We grew up with murals. Granted, most of them were sectarian, but murals, murals of any kind, If they're done well are art. So, there's nothing wrong with people having art to look at some of the places those murals are in are pretty grim to live in, So yeah, murals make it that wee bit nicer.
interviewer
Have you seen or are you aware of warnings and threats written on houses or walls? What’s your opinion of them, intimidating, necessary, or harmless?
interviewee 1
Seen. Oh yeah, yeah, seen plenty.
interviewee 2
Yeah, we’ve seen lots of. Yeah. And your opinion of them is, well people were warned because of something they had done. If they had broken the paramilitaries code or anti-social behaviour, drugs, whatever, that kind of behaviour wasn't tolerated. So, they were given a warning. You get a certain amount of time to get out. If you didn't get out, then you would be punished and quite a lot of people did.
I suppose it sounds brutal, but actually the crime rate was pretty low. from the point of view of they gave people a warning. They didn't just come up. Well, some people they did come up with just do it. But in general, you got a warning, get out or this is what's going to happen. Yeah.
interviewee 1
They dealt with crime in the area that the police couldn't deal with, crime and yeah, you know, that's what [REDACTED] says that, you know, the warning is, you know, get out of, get out of this area. And your your behaviour is not going to be tolerated. And so most people who were threatened left and.
interviewee 2
Part of the reason why
interviewee 1
but it was also telling the community, we know what they're doing, and we are not, or we will not tolerate it in here. You know, and.
interviewee 2
Part of the reason why the paramilitaries did it and the police couldn't do it was because in both communities, those areas pretty much were a no-go area for the police. So, the police couldn’t get into there, well then, they kind of had to police their own you know.
interviewee 1
Yeah. They don't record this.
Interviewer
paused
interviewee 2
The other aspect of it is there were mistakes made. There were people who were believed to have done stuff that they hadn't. They were given warnings and had to get out when they were completely innocent.
interviewer
It's been almost 25 years since the Good Friday Agreement in 25 years of ceasefire. Should we consider removing the murals? Do they keep us stuck in the past? Are they a painful reminder of what we went through?
interviewee 2
I think, I think some of the murals are changing. Having driven through Belfast recently and in some of the Republican areas, some of them are more like social things. Some of the loyalist ones are there. I don't know that they should be removed because they do remind us. Yeah, it is a painful reminder of the past, but it also reminds us to learn from the past.
And if we don't learn from it, we're likely to repeat it again. So, some of them probably should be removed. The more provocative ones should be removed. But by the same token, it did happen, and it does need to be remembered. So, it doesn't happen again. hmm that’s a tough one.
interviewee 1
Yeah. I would keep the ones that remember somebody who died during the Troubles. And on either side, I think they're they're all right because people did die. Yeah.
Interviewer
So, you mean more like a tribute or a memorial to them, yeah?
Speaker 1
Yes, memorial, yeah keep them there. And I think take the threatening ones away you know remove the, the verbal threats and yeah replace them. I would I, I think you should replace a lot of them with different things more for the for the kids that are walking by them now who know nothing about it and its better if they didn't know anything about it in that sense, you know of that. So, I would like to see a lot of them being replaced.
interviewee 2
I Don't agree that there's kids walking by that know nothing about it. if you grew up in that, you know about it.
interviewee 1
Only because that's sparking it off.
interviewee 2
Because it's part of the community. It's part of yeah, the history. The heritage
interviewee 1
kids only know about it if you tell them what that’s about, otherwise they won't. But if that’s not there. The thing about them, well, is you could take photographs of the wall and start removing a lot of them and make it because I've never been, I was not a kid looking at them, but some of them must be scary if you're like p1-3, you know, that sort of age it must be you know.
Interviewer
Yeah, so you have little kids walking by looking at guns or men in masks…
interviewee 1
Yeah, well, so.
interviewee 2
You saw that as a child when you saw soldiers. We saw men in masks with guns. Like literally saw them.
interviewee 1
Yeah, we did, but did it help you seeing that? it'll be great if you can move on. As I say, me, I would say keep the ones that remember people died as memorial. Keep the ones that sort of acknowledge, you know, like the battle of the Somme and stuff, I guess here and, you know, that sort of thing
But there's a there's plenty of good stuff that could go up and really.
interviewer
How do you feel about the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland or lack thereof a border?
interviewee 2
It's a different country. It is not the same country, the same island, but it is a different government, so to be honest, I don't think that. it's a difficult question to answer. And I don't really have the right to say. But it's a yeah there should be a border in northern, between Northern Ireland, the Republic.
Wouldn't really make a big difference to me. if you go between two other European countries, there's a border, so why wouldn't we? Shouldn't you have one? But I do get its Ireland, the island of Ireland, and I do get why they took it away.
interviewee 1
I, yeah, I guess I’m slightly different. That because we were part of the EU borders didn't exist to most countries that I went to. All right, so the, the border didn't exist, and you just drove on through it and it. a hard border existed when the troubles were on so that people just couldn't cross on the main roads. But they just crossed then on another country road so, yeah with that you stopped a lot of stuff but you can't use to stop it all. They could still just simply move around without any bother. And and I just thought it was an awful lot easier. It's a bit of hassle, that's all. It doesn't mean anything, you know, we drove up over it a couple of weeks ago, either side going into the south and out of the south and didn't didn't have any big significance, any more significance to driving out of Scotland and into England, vice versa. It really was nothing.
interviewee 2
But it it did used to be I can remember.
interviewee 1
Yeah.
interviewee 2
As a child used to be….
interviewee 1
because there was a conflict like.
interviewee 2
There were, you know, it was a manned border. So, it was. You knew you were leaving Northern Ireland or the Republic.
interviewee 1
You know, the soldiers were there, the army were there, the places where there was all. But that was for security reasons. And, you know, so.
interviewer
How do you feel the potential new borders Brexit could cause, for example, Irish Sea border or a proper border with checks between Northern Ireland and the Republic.
interviewee 1
I don't like the the manufactured border in the sea. And it just makes life really difficult for the people that live in Northern Ireland. And it's not necessary, just simply ignore it. Let the EU and Britain and Ireland just ignore it. There's plenty of other countries that can just ignore their borders, whether in the EU or not, like Sweden and Norway and stuff like that there. And they just get on. We once, once Ireland was given its independence there was, a law was given that the Irish could go to England at any time and get a job with not needing a passport. So just have that mentality we can move around and just forget about this. This is this. It's a political border and it's a pawn that the EU used to try and complicate the matter of Britain, Brexit, Brexit and that. So, it doesn't need to be out of just makes everything so much harder for the people in Northern Ireland.
interviewee 2
Pretty much the same. I don't I don't really see a need for it and that's if you're going to have a border. But I mean a sea border that sea border is just a piece of nonsense. If you're going to have a border, then it needs to be a land border. But the economic repercussions for that, for Northern Ireland and the Republic are quite significant. And again, I think it would make life. It does make life quite difficult, particularly for businesses trying to get stuff in. And eh the effect on people in the shops, they just don't have the stuff that they should have those things.
interviewer
So, what effect do you think that a hard border would have for a peace process?
interviewee 2
I think it makes a more definite line between the two countries, the two nations. In some ways that's that makes it makes it more difficult for people to actually mix. And because it is seen much more as two separate countries, which it actually is, and I can see why people would think, well, that's okay. It is two separate countries and I can I can agree with that to a point. But if you want people to live together in peace, then do you need to have a hard border? Economically? possibly with the EU They might say, yes, they do. I think backdoor to the EU is one of the terms that was use. but I think it would probably put prices up, make commodities harder to get. produce that would could be brought through the republic or through Northern Ireland to the Republic wouldn't happen because of all the bureaucracy and paperwork that's.
interviewee 1
Part of the peace process. Was that it wouldn't it would not make a hard border. That's the psychological things. This sense is, is that there's just free easy movement between us. That's just what that basically says. Let's get on with each other. All right? That's not complicated. Let's just get on with each other. And there's always been the difficulty of when, before Ireland just to have called their money was called a punt, ours was a pound so always had the change money over. They then went through with the euro and we still had the pound. So, you've always sort of had to change that over. But they were quite prepared to take both monies. You know, there's this sort of let's, let's forget about it and get on with it, you know? And so, if you throw a physical border up psychologically, you're saying we're different we’re, we are, different now. And I just I think what I said earlier, just stop playing the game. Just leave the thing alone and get on with it. Get on with living. And because I mean, at the end of the day, there's a million and a half people live in the northern Ireland. It's not making a big problem financially to your trading with a million and a half people.
So why make that so difficult? Why cause trouble when you don't need to have the trouble?
interviewer
What effect do you think the sea border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK would have on the peace process? `
interviewee 1
What it's doing is it's given it's given the Protestant community the perception that they are not part of Britain. You know cos they can’t trade, and they can’t get the same sort of things. So, there's that there's this difference and the, you know, the protestants are fighting over this, and they will fight even more. And so, again, forget it. It's not needed. It's just forget it.
interviewee 2
It's the loyalist community see the, sea Brexit as a betrayal. They were told there would be no, there would be no border between them and Britain and that is a border between them and Britain. And yeah, so they feel as if they they’ve been lied to, I mean they have been lied to and they feel betrayed and they will dig their heels.
interviewee 1
And it is, it's a nonsense, the whole thing. So, we, we've got new windows in here. All right. So, friends from Scotland put them in right. I had to get a certificate for them to be allowed to bring the windows from Scotland to Northern Ireland. I have to get a different certificate for them to be allowed to take on the boat, the old windows back, the dump them. No, that's just something as simple as that. Can you imagine how hard that is with businesses and so certain businesses just don't want all that red tape and they just say we're not selling stuff into Northern Ireland because it's just too much hassle adding it to forms just to get that. So, if you were selling stuff and you wanted to send two or three loads every week, it just becomes it's just crazy, you know?
So just forget about it.
Interviewer
How do you feel that government buildings flying flags? Should they try to be inclusive and fly them all? just the UK stuff?
interviewee 2
Most countries well, any country that I can think of fly their own flags in their own country and so but being part of the loyalist community, I don't see why we shouldn't fly our own flag. I get why the nationalist community see the Irish flag as theirs. But it's not the same country. So, I can see why they would want it but I don’t agree with them. But I can I can see where they're coming from. And to be honest, I don't know that it would do any harm to let them have it.
interviewee 1
I don't. I think the country's right to fly its own flag. Okay. So, when I was in the south a few weeks ago, I accepted they fly their flag all right. And yeah, I don’t like it, don’t like their flag. But anyway, and I don't see why you should fly another country's flag in your country. It's different when we're all part of the EU. Yes, you can. If you've got the offices are, then all the flags could be flown. But there is an EU flag. So, you could have just flown it. If you want to make it official and say, all right, there's times whenever you can fly the Tricolour in Northern Ireland, well then there has to be times that You could fly the union flag in the South. Why not? Why is it that only one side of the island has to accommodate, why does one side have to do all the compromising. If you prepared to fly both you know we can fly the the Ulster flag there well then I don't have the same problem. But we can't. So, what I mean is. So, Ireland rugby is all Ireland. Okay. It's all Ireland. Okay, but it's always played in the south But are we allowed to bring Ulster flags down the ones from the north bring our flags down and fly them They don't want to fly that in the grounds. Even though its representing ulster too. You know there are occasions where it could be flown as were representing all of Ireland. But they don't, you know.
interviewee 2
Whether it's a union flag or an Ulster fly, it doesn't really matter. We could not take it down there and fly it down there. But they do expect the Tricolour to be flown in their areas. And it's and yes, they are their areas, but it is not their. It's not the country of the republic of Ireland.
interviewee 1
Other boundary things.
interviewer
How do you feel about signs being written in both English and Gaelic? Should other language be included too?
interviewee 2
The vast majority of people, are you talking about in Northern Ireland?
Interviewer
Yes, in Northern Ireland
interviewee2
The vast majority of people in Northern Ireland don't speak Gaelic, but it is supposed to be the second language. And if people want to have signs written in Gaelic and English, I don't see what the problem is.
interviewee 1
I don't care. I honestly don't care. It is part of an ancient language that was spoken, and it is familiar. Yet when you're down in the south of Ireland, they still have both. So, there's no there's no problem. I just don't see a problem with that.
interviewee 2
They did have a while back. One of the local authorities maybe it was in Belfast decided they would put up Ulster-Scots and a whole lot of the loyalist community complained about them putting up Gaelic. It wasn't Gaelic, it was Ulster-Scots, and they didn't know it. And you could, just very few people speak Ulster-Scots So Gaelic is part of the heritage. We did speak it at one point, so I don't have a problem with that at all.
interviewee 1
It's a bit like that. You know, it's a Chinese restaurant that has Chinese writing on it, I can't read that. If they don't give me the name of a restaurant in some sort of language that I can say. And I would know it, So I don't know. You know, I.
interviewee 2
Don't really see the point. I mean, the question should other languages being included, where do you stop the two where English in Gaelic. So yeah. Enough.
interviewee 1
Yeah. Okay
interviewer
Should Gaelic be taught in all schools? A second language.?
interviewee 1
No, simply because it's a it's a minor language. It's in the ancient language. You could give them a choice if they want. I think they should be taught a modern language that would be useful, such as, you know, German, French, Spanish, something like that, that it's going to be of benefit to you in this world.
interviewee 2
The vast majority of people in the Republic don't actually speak Gaelic either. We were down there. I mean, the sign is they have both signs up, but the vast majority of people I can't remember what the percentage. Somebody told me when we were down there, it's not very high. So, I don't think it should be taught as compulsory, but it could be offered if people wanted it.
interviewer
Should schools make concentrated effort to include more Irish history or culture.
interviewee 2
That's a hard question to answer because we've we've been out of it for so long. I don't know what they offer. I know that we didn't get any I didn't get taught in the Irish history. We did English history. I think my children got a bit more of the Irish history. though I don't know what, what they, they do teach now. Well, it depends on who’s teaching it doesn’t it.
interviewee 1
Irish history is very very old. There’s great culture with it whether it's in the north or the south it doesn't matter. I think it would be good if it could be taught and taught fair. It's probably the best word.
interviewee 2
Balanced?
interviewee 1
Balanced, balanced. Yeah. You know what? When we were down at the Boyne, I was really impressed with the way in the South of Ireland, they've they've got the centre and they just tell the story of what happened. You can like it or lump it, but it doesn't matter. This is what happened. And I think that's a lot better than the biased way, isn’t it? If you're not taught it well, then you pick it up in your culture and it's a very biased way to pick up your cult, to pick up your history, you know.
interviewer
And should the troubles be taught in schools.
interviewee 2
Again, that's a very difficult question to answer because it depends on the teacher, and it depends on their bias and everybody has a bias whether they acknowledge or not. And if you're taught it in your community, you're going to get your bias. They're going to get their bias.
interviewee 1
So, it follows on from the same problem here. Here's where the problem lies. And this is in secondary school level education. Protestants will not be teaching in secondary schools that are Catholic, but Catholics can be teaching in Protestant schools and that's where you're going to get biased one way you know what I mean.
interviewee 2
And if you go to a certain teacher training college, you can only teach in a Protestant school, a state school, because if you want to have a Catholic one, you have to go to theirs. But they can teach always teach in ours, which has always been seen as unfair. So, but either way, I don't think anybody growing up in Northern Ireland can be completely unbiased. You can be as far as you can, but it's very hard to teach and when you say teaching about the Troubles, there's an awful lot of stuff within that that actually people don't know the truth. You know, there's an awful lot of, for want of a better word, essentially black ops, you know, there were soldiers that were killed, there was no information given. There’s stuff that's been released over the years. You know, the government knew about this. It's the Irish government knew about that, but we've been all kinds of stuff. Nobody really knows the true extent of it. In general terms, I think it probably should be taught in schools again, because if we if they don't know about it, they can't learn from it. But it depends on how it's taught.
interviewer
How do you feel about national teams like football playing God Save the King should they be more like Scotland with oh flower of Scotland as their song. And why do you think Northern Ireland doesn't use an alternative?
interviewee 1
I think it's a horrible national anthem. It's terrible. It's not a good national anthem, but the reason Northern Ireland will not use alternative is because it's how it keeps its connection to that, to Britain. Yeah, the the others do you know Wales Wales sings its own and Scotland sings its own heh England would probably like to sing its own song
interviewee 2
Even they don’t really like it,
interviewee 1
Yeah, so if there was there is actually no song that you could sing that's, that's Northern Irish.
interviewee 2
Eh,” I’ll tell me ma”
interviewee 1
And I you know there is no, there is no song and so you know Flower of Scotland, you know you think all of the Scots all sing that. No, the Rangers’ fans don't sing that they sing the national anthem you see and Celtic don't sing it Celtic sing Irish songs you see. So yeah. So, there is no song, you know, some tried at one point at one stage they thought Danny Boy, Danny Boy is not a good song to have as a national anthem.
interviewee 2
You mean the fact that its miserable
interviewee 1
Yeah, it's a miserable song. But when you come back and I’m dead, you know, stand at my grave. So, you need a stirring song. Both sides have stirring songs, but they're you know that they're not that's not going to work. They're just as no other song.
interviewee 2
So, aspect of it, I mean, it's the national anthem for the United Kingdom. And when you start to poke about with different songs, you're really talking about separation and separating, you know, the Scotland being separate from England, you're talking about the borders, and most from the loyalist community in Northern Ireland will stick to the national anthem because it is British, it is the United Kingdom national anthem and and they want to stay part of the United Kingdom. I can see why a lot of people in Scotland, not all of them, but a lot of people will go with Flower of Scotland or whatever else because they don't necessarily want to stay part of the United Kingdom.
interviewer
How do you feel about national teams that include both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, should they exist at all?
interviewee 1
Am eh well, obviously rugby's a great example of that. But the argument always is rugby. Whenever Ireland play, they always play in the South and for long enough they sang the Irish Free State national anthem. They’ve stopped that. All right. But they did do it, which blocked off a lot of Northern Ireland people. Rugby enthusiasts from going because they didn't really feel that they were representing them. So, some wouldn't go play because of that. And it can’t be done on a sporting level unless you have an all-Ireland competition. So those so the likes of football, there's two different football associations so they can't have one team. All right. Because then that would mean would mean that only the champions from one of those countries can enter the European tournaments. there used to be. One team, even up to the fifties, Ireland had one team played football and and then they stopped. The south came away, organized themselves up properly and became a proper association. But they did use to be one team and the only place where they can as see you can't even do the Commonwealth Games; I don't think because the South don't want to be reminded. They don't, they don't belong in the Commonwealth, you know. And so, I don't know how you do it. I don't know how it could be done.
Yes, it is better teams have better complications. You know, it's sad.
interviewee 2
To be honest. I think the only way it could be done, I'm not sure if they should be done is if it is all one country. You know, if if it was a united Ireland, then yeah, they would have the same team but it isn't. It's two separate countries. And at the moment there's a very small majority of people in the north.
They still want it to stay that way. But if it gets to the point where the majority doesn't want that anymore, then it's democracy. If it goes to United Ireland, then yeah, they should have. They would probably go under the the Republic's national anthem. I doubt they’d actually come up with a different one. They'll probably just take on that.
interviewer
When you were a child, very aware of things like faery rings, stone circles, thin places and so on and what did you think? They were.
interviewee 2
Faery rings Yeah, we were always we knew what faery rings were. You were told the stories and there were actually quite a lot of faery rings You would see them regularly if you were out or if you went out for a drive on a Sunday which we did do. You knew where the faery rings were. thin places I hadn't really heard of so much as a child. Stone circles are just Faery rings so yeah same as the tree ones, you were aware of. But I don't, I don't remember hearing about thin places much but then we weren’t really near any so why would they be brought up. faery rings, basically, that was where the fairies live. They danced about frolicked and had fun. And yeah, we were told stories about them.
interviewee 1
Yeah. And you're well aware of all of it. I don't know if you told them in school. Yeah, it was, just accepted, it was just assumed you would know them. You did hear them. They were always in the stories. You heard all these stories and the retelling of the stories, and they told you the myths and. And all of this here. A part of that was from our, well my set up is I'm coming in from my families, both sides, two or three sides, actually, even. They're all country people. So, they know all this here you would just accept it. But yeah, you wouldn't have been surprised that there was stuff around you when you were out. And because there was you know, there was talk of the little people I know that sometimes what they called the leprechauns, but there was this Yeah, you were told these stories, you as a kid, you were told these stories, you know, and.
interviewee 2
They were I don't know that they were stories.
interviewee 1
They were stories that you were told as a kid weren’t they, that’s what they were. These are part of the stories. The way that today You hear Disney stories you know for the princess’s stuff. These were just the stories you were told.
interviewee 2
And I don't know that you thought of them as sacred from the point of view of similar to church things,
interviewee 1
I didn’t say they were sacred.
interviewee 2
Oh, but they were special. They were. They were stories about your land and your culture and.
interviewee 1
Yeah, there could be stuff around you is the way it was told was that it could be around you, you know, and nobody poo pooed the idea that there was faeries, and the likes. At one time people did live under the ground. These little people, you know, they're little because they lived under the ground and never really got to grow. And and that there was caves and stuff like this here. It wasn’t, the thin places that you heard of, wasn't between the living and the dead, which is really what they were. It was between these otherworldly creatures and humans, you know. And of course, Halloween was a big thing for that, you know, And.
interviewee 2
Halloween was, the trouble started when I was ten. And up until that point, Halloween had been quite a big thing. But because of the troubles, Halloween had to change because fireworks were banned. So, Halloween was quite different for a long time. But the faery stories were were kind of always there. They were sort of part of the background the were there. And I don't know that people thought they actually existed. But you were very aware, such as faery rings, farmers didn’t cut them down. They planted around them, and they ploughed the fields around and the faery rings just sat there because it was supposed to be bad luck. And that, yeah, so the faery rings stayed.
interviewee 1
People were superstitious and yeah, yeah, you didn’t it wasn’t that they were still about it was that they had been about
interviewee 2
It was more they had been about yeah It was just a part of your history I suppose.
interviewee 1
They were here once but now they’ve kind of left yeah this was the idea of it and yeah, I think
interviewer
What do you think about them now? Have your views of them changed?
interviewee 1
Like the faeries and stuff?
interviewer
yeah, the faeries, the faery rings, the thin places have your views on them changed? Are you more aware of the mythologies behind them now?
interviewee 2
A lot of them are still there, We still see the faery rings everywhere. we were down south not too long ago and we saw quite a few faery rings, so it's probably more part of Tradition now. And you know, the fact that people believe it's bad luck or good luck or whatever.
interviewee 1
Yeah. Obviously people are well maybe we’re, not a superstitious as it once was and it was very superstitious, you know, even, you know, you saw a magpie, you know it’s one for sorrow two for joy so you always wanted to see that second one , you know, a black cat would walk out and you know that meant something to them your grannies and the great grannies generation, all these they did all this sort of stuff, the don’t walk under a ladder.
I would deliberately walk under a ladder you know and they’d be ooh don’t walk under it. Friday the 13th was a whooee
interviewee 2
There were a lot of old wives’ tales really weren’t they and the fae, the stories of the faeries and banshees and all of that kind of got mixed in with it. It all got mixed in with it together.
interviewee 1
Yeah.
interviewee 2
So, your views of that are quite different as an adult from they were a child. But the stories behind where some of them came from are incredibly good stories. So having looked up some of the bits and pieces as to where they came from, you know, the story of the Giant's Causeway, you know, the myths around that. It's quite an interesting story, particularly for children and where the Banshees came from, that they're good stories.
interviewee 1
Yeah, obviously you don’t believe them. I don't know if I did believe them either when I was a kid. I don't know.
Interviewee 2
I don't think you ever really thought they were real as a child. But we just we lived across the road from Bangor Abbey, which is fourth century, the oldest church in Europe. We used to sit over in the graveyard telling stories about faeries or fae. You know, the were nearly always faeries in them. It was ghost stories and scary stories, but there were always faeries in the stories, and they lived a lot of people. Crypts were falling apart and yeah, and it's quite spooky looking and part of it, you didn't really believe it, but I think part of you might have wanted to.
interviewee 1
Ah yeah you kept some of it alive with your own kids, so. And the fairies would bring them stuff if they left out. Well growing up they built be shelters for the fairies, you remember, and, and woods and stuff. And they liked doing that it was fun for them And it was just it was just stories you know just stories you know, you weren't trying to tell them this was real. And it was just. For fun I suppose
interviewee 2
It was just a fun activity you could do with them you know you were out in the woods, and you helped them to get sticks and moss and grass and then they’d build little houses for the faeries. Yeah. So, when the faeries were flying by and they were getting tired they could have a wee rest all of the kids loved doing it you know
interviewee 1
Yeah. I think all generations need a level of fantasy and, and so
interviewee 2
Some of the stories that they came from are actually very interesting stories. A lot of the legends within all of Ireland, they're they're very interesting stories.
interviewer
How do you feel about tourists taking selfies in thin spots or sacred places or in faery rings?
interviewee 1
I really don't care. I mean, I’ve gone to those places I’ve taken photos You know. As long as they’re not like running round them and messing them up, then I’m not yeah I don’t care
interviewee 2
We were in Ireland down in the republic in October last year. We took lots of photos of sacred places. We went to New Haven. We went to lots of the stone circles, and we took lots of photos of them. I think as long as you’re respectful like you’re not climbing all over them or acting the ejitt, you know, like I think the I think tourists it can help actually to keep those legends, those stories, and those myths alive for the next generation. If you take a photo of, say like a faery ring then you have to explain to somebody what that is. So, yeah, you know.
interviewee 1
Yeah, I suppose you got to find out enough to explain it.
interviewee 2
Not all cultures have you know faery rings I mean, England and Scotland and them, they don't really seem have any or know what were on about when we mention them.
interviewer
And sort of bleeds after the last question, how do you feel about commercial versions of these being sold as profits, So like fairy doors for trees and the like?
interviewee 2
For, uh, I don't see a problem with that at all. If it helps to feed children's imagination, helps to keep the history, the legends, the stories alive, then yeah why not? Yeah, people are making money out of it, but if it's, the children that it's being told to, if it's for children, are being helped and their imaginations being fed, then why not.
interviewee 1
Yeah, I don't really care. Yeah, yeah. I think they're yeah, I think there's nothing more exciting for a child than to be walking along in the woods and somebody put a wee house in or put a wee door in a tree and then that sparks off their imagination and that's, that's, that's Yeah, yeah.